Sophia, orthia...wisdom, let us attend...

[credoquaabsurdum]

I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student
come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy
of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox
Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in
Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic
Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in
the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst
enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.

There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard
translation in official translations is given in the subject line.

Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it,
in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH,
ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it
sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)

Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line
would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain
panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.

We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen
up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up
the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an
on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while
I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me
more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn
English when they had the chance and now need special help because they
lied on their admission applications to seminary.

In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic
Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does
the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

[Django Cat]

On 29 Jul 2005 19:57:59 -0700, "credoquaabsurdum"

Post by credoquaabsurdum
I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student
come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy
of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox
Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in
Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic
Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in
the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst
enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.
There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard
translation in official translations is given in the subject line.
Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it,
in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH,
ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it
sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)
Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line
would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain
panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.
We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen
up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up
the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an
on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while
I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me
more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn
English when they had the chance and now need special help because they
lied on their admission applications to seminary.
In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic
Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does
the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

Dunno about mass, but there's the naff 'be upstanding'.

DC

[John Ramsay]

Post by credoquaabsurdum
I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student
come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy
of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox
Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in
Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic
Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in
the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst
enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.
There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard
translation in official translations is given in the subject line.
Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it,
in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH,
ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it
sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)
Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line
would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain
panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.
We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen
up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up
the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an
on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while
I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me
more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn
English when they had the chance and now need special help because they
lied on their admission applications to seminary.
In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic
Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does
the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

More to the point, ask your divinity student
if it's customary in his ceremony for the
priest to order the congregation to stand
up to hear the reading.

If they've literally been standing up for
1700 years you may not wanna change that.

However, I suspect from my own knowledge
of the English language and it's Greek
loanwords that 'orthia' in a religious
ceremony has more to do with orthodox
rather than orthopedic -:)

[credoquaabsurdum]

Post by John Ramsay

Post by credoquaabsurdum
I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student
come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy
of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox
Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in
Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic
Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in
the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst
enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.
There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard
translation in official translations is given in the subject line.
Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it,
in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH,
ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it
sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)
Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line
would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain
panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.
We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen
up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up
the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an
on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while
I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me
more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn
English when they had the chance and now need special help because they
lied on their admission applications to seminary.
In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic
Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does
the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

More to the point, ask your divinity student
if it's customary in his ceremony for the
priest to order the congregation to stand
up to hear the reading.
If they've literally been standing up for
1700 years you may not wanna change that.
However, I suspect from my own knowledge
of the English language and it's Greek
loanwords that 'orthia' in a religious
ceremony has more to do with orthodox
rather than orthopedic -:)

Oops. I've never attended a Roman Catholic ceremony, but the Eastern
Orthodox ALWAYS stand when they hear the reading for the Bible. It's an
extraordinarily stylized event. I remember when I went to Baptist
school when I was a young 'un, there was no up-down routine. Like, uh,
duh, I should have thought about that when I posted.

They also kneel and pray to the Lord at some point in the ceremony. In
the States, I never attended an Orthodox church without drop-down
prie-dieux in the satin-upholstered pews. In Greece, I have yet to see
a church with so much as a carpet cushioning the universal marble
floor, and the chairs never, but never, have cushions. No shortage of
frescoes, gold, and opulent carving, but absolutely no creature
comforts, even in the richest churches.

Check that on the marble floor: I had the opportunity to attend a
tranditional baptism in a Greek church that is about 1500 years old and
there, the floor was actually chiseled out of the hill the church was
built on. A millenium and a half of worship hadn't worn it smooth yet.
I think it's a mortification of the flesh thing.

"Orthos" in orthodox and orthopedic is really the same word. It means
both "upright" and "standing," as DJ Cat, who knows Greek, played on.

[Einde O'Callaghan]

Post by credoquaabsurdum

Post by John Ramsay

Post by credoquaabsurdum
I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student
come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy
of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox
Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in
Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic
Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in
the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst
enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.
There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard
translation in official translations is given in the subject line.
Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it,
in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH,
ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it
sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)
Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line
would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain
panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.
We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen
up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up
the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an
on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while
I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me
more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn
English when they had the chance and now need special help because they
lied on their admission applications to seminary.
In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic
Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does
the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

More to the point, ask your divinity student
if it's customary in his ceremony for the
priest to order the congregation to stand
up to hear the reading.
If they've literally been standing up for
1700 years you may not wanna change that.
However, I suspect from my own knowledge
of the English language and it's Greek
loanwords that 'orthia' in a religious
ceremony has more to do with orthodox
rather than orthopedic -:)

Oops. I've never attended a Roman Catholic ceremony, but the Eastern
Orthodox ALWAYS stand when they hear the reading for the Bible.

In the Roman Catholic Mass the congregation stands during readings from
the Gospels but sits during readings from other sections of the Bible
(Epistles, Acts, Old Testament etc.). It's a long time since I attended
a Catholic Mass so I can't tell you if the congregation is instructed to
stand for the Gospel or the other parts of the ceremony where the
congregation has to stand.

I've only been to an Orthodox ceremony once (the funeral of an
acquaintance). I basically followed what the rest of the congregation did.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

[John Ramsay]

Post by credoquaabsurdum

Post by John Ramsay

Post by credoquaabsurdum
I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student
come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy
of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox
Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in
Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic
Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in
the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst
enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.
There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard
translation in official translations is given in the subject line.
Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it,
in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH,
ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it
sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)
Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line
would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain
panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.
We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen
up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up
the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an
on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while
I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me
more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn
English when they had the chance and now need special help because they
lied on their admission applications to seminary.
In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic
Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does
the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

More to the point, ask your divinity student
if it's customary in his ceremony for the
priest to order the congregation to stand
up to hear the reading.
If they've literally been standing up for
1700 years you may not wanna change that.
However, I suspect from my own knowledge
of the English language and it's Greek
loanwords that 'orthia' in a religious
ceremony has more to do with orthodox
rather than orthopedic -:)

Oops. I've never attended a Roman Catholic ceremony, but the Eastern
Orthodox ALWAYS stand when they hear the reading for the Bible. It's an
extraordinarily stylized event. I remember when I went to Baptist
school when I was a young 'un, there was no up-down routine. Like, uh,
duh, I should have thought about that when I posted.

I originally meant to warn you against your rant about Koine on
the basis of personal experience.

My wife's cousin was a Baptist missionary in Africa, early 60's.

His reward for outstanding work in the field was a seminary
appointment to teach what he called 'New Testament Greek.'

When I said, 'Do you mean Koinee?' He said stiffly,
'I suppose we could call it demotic Greek.'

Post by credoquaabsurdum
They also kneel and pray to the Lord at some point in the ceremony. In
the States, I never attended an Orthodox church without drop-down
prie-dieux in the satin-upholstered pews. In Greece, I have yet to see
a church with so much as a carpet cushioning the universal marble
floor, and the chairs never, but never, have cushions. No shortage of
frescoes, gold, and opulent carving, but absolutely no creature
comforts, even in the richest churches.

I used to attend RC mass but it's been years. I think we only
stood up at beginning and end.

In between there was sitting and kneeling and getting up to
go take communion.

Seems to me the 2 parties, after the great schism, must have decided
to make their rituals as opposite as they could.

That's why I asked you if orthodox actually stood to hear the reading.

Your divinity student would get short shrift if he attempted to
change orthodox practices into Catholic ones -:)

The last Pope's last visit to Russia in an attempt to heal
the schism did not sit well with Orthodox patriarchs.

Post by credoquaabsurdum
Check that on the marble floor: I had the opportunity to attend a
tranditional baptism in a Greek church that is about 1500 years old and
there, the floor was actually chiseled out of the hill the church was
built on. A millenium and a half of worship hadn't worn it smooth yet.
I think it's a mortification of the flesh thing.
"Orthos" in orthodox and orthopedic is really the same word. It means
both "upright" and "standing," as DJ Cat, who knows Greek, played on.

Indeed, the orthodox are always claiming they're right.

[credoquaabsurdum]

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments on this thread. I
apologize for settiung out something like this in this group, but I was
at my wits' end.

Regarding Einde's comment, indeed, the Orthodox stand during the GOSPEL
reading, not other New Testament readings. It has been years since I
have actually paid real attention to the liturgy in general, and I
didn't make that clear.

My divinity student, against my better judgement, has decided to change
"Wisdom, let us attend" to "Wisdom, stand and attend." His work is part
of a inquiry on the part of the Greek Orthodox church to produce a new
officially-sanctioned translation, the last one having been approved
circa 1900.

Regarding other comments:

When Pope John Paul II came to Athens, he was actually forced to stand
and listen to the archbishop of Athens -- a jumped-up popinjay if ever
there was one -- read off a list of grievances against the Orthodox
dating from the Great Schism.

I've never attended to a Catholic Mass, and your information was
extrememly helpful.

People who know me know I make no claims whatsoever to the supremacy of
any Christian sect whatsoever. There once was a time when I had serious
thoughts about entering the priesthood, but when I realized my first
love was teaching English, that quickly went by the wayside. Some
interesting trivia: most of the official Orthodox hierarchy worldwide
have voted in the last hundred years to officially recognize the
Anglican model as legitimate, and have lobbied to incorporate parts of
the Church of England's innovations into general Orthodox practice.

From what I understand, they're only about another hundred years (or

so) away from officially merging.

Once again, thank you.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by credoquaabsurdum
I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student
come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy
of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox
Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in
Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic
Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in
the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst
enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.
There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard
translation in official translations is given in the subject line.
Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it,
in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH,
ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it
sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)
Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line
would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain
panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.
We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen
up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up
the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an
on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while
I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me
more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn
English when they had the chance and now need special help because they
lied on their admission applications to seminary.
In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic
Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does
the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

From the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, "Wisdom, let us attend"