new interactive online dialect survey

[b***@gmail.com]

Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:

My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online at
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

This survey differs from my previous Harvard and UWM surveys in a few
important ways:

1. It maps the responses using the google maps engine, which allows
for
interactive manipulation of the maps: zooming in, moving across the
globe,
and so on.

2. It has a more manageable number of questions (31).

3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

Currently the maps plot 50,000 responses from the United States, but
once I
have sufficient responses from the rest of the world I will generate
new maps.

I hope you will consider taking the survey and asking your friends and
students to as well.

Thanks,

Bert Vaux
University of Cambridge

[mb]

On Oct 20, 7:38 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
...

Post by b***@gmail.com
Currently the maps plot 50,000 responses from the United States, but
once I
have sufficient responses from the rest of the world I will generate
new maps.

Are the maps unavailable / secret? Or is a look at them strictly
reserved to mother-tongue speakers?

[Ildhund]

Bert Vaux wrote...

Post by b***@gmail.com
3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of
English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to
relate to purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author
will consider a similar geographical survey of quirks in British
English - "What is your normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance?
Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a
variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

[Alan Jones]

Post by Ildhund
Bert Vaux wrote...

Post by b***@gmail.com
3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to relate to
purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author will consider a
similar geographical survey of quirks in British English - "What is your
normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance? Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does
your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or
'stone' or 'boon'?"

Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes ginnel and
snicket. But no distinction is made between British _regional_ and _social_
dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any allowance for social context
e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the same person may use "loo" or
"toilet" or "gents" etc depending on whom he is addressing and on what
occasion).

Alan Jones

[John Briggs]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Ildhund
Bert Vaux wrote...

Post by b***@gmail.com
3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to
relate to purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author
will consider a similar geographical survey of quirks in British
English - "What is your normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance?
Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a
variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes
ginnel and snicket. But no distinction is made between British
_regional_ and _social_ dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any
allowance for social context e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the
same person may use "loo" or "toilet" or "gents" etc depending on
whom he is addressing and on what occasion).

The fallacy is in the subject line - this is noth to do with dialects.

[Barbara Bailey]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Ildhund
Bert Vaux wrote...

Post by b***@gmail.com
3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to
relate to purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author
will consider a similar geographical survey of quirks in British
English - "What is your normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance?
Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a
variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes ginnel
and snicket. But no distinction is made between British _regional_ and
_social_ dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any allowance for
social context e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the same person
may use "loo" or "toilet" or "gents" etc depending on whom he is
addressing and on what occasion).

He's got two ways for you to deal with that sort of circumstance: the
Comments field is a place for you to add information that isn't included in
the answers as they stand, and this iteration of the survey has been
changed from "Choose one answer only" to "Mark all that apply".

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Ildhund
Bert Vaux wrote...

Post by b***@gmail.com
3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to relate to
purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author will consider a
similar geographical survey of quirks in British English - "What is your
normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance? Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does
your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or
'stone' or 'boon'?"

Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes ginnel and
snicket. But no distinction is made between British _regional_ and _social_
dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any allowance for social context
e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the same person may use "loo" or
"toilet" or "gents" etc depending on whom he is addressing and on what
occasion).

Looks to me, and the data presented on a US map also suggests this, that
it is a survey originally used to find out about American English usages,
but which has been extended to find usage elesewhere. The questions asked
are ones where there is a particular variety of usages in the US, although
British terminology has been added.

The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

Matthew Huntbach

[mUs1Ka]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

You need to look more carefully; it is there.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by mUs1Ka

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

You need to look more carefully; it is there.

No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father
came from the twitchell-speaking part of England. I think it was a source
of some amusement between my father and mother than they both had dialect
words for the thing, which were similar but different. Plus we were brought
up in a house which had a twitten/twitchell close by, so it was a term in
common use.

Matthew Huntbach

[K. Edgcombe]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father

Twitten was there when I did the survey a couple of hours ago. Maybe words are
being added as people report them?

Katy

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by K. Edgcombe

Post by Matthew Huntbach
No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father

Twitten was there when I did the survey a couple of hours ago. Maybe words are
being added as people report them?

Maybe so, that would also mean as more non-USAnians use it, it would lose
its AmE bias. Perhaps we should have been toldthis.

Matthew Huntbach

[mUs1Ka]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by mUs1Ka

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

You need to look more carefully; it is there.

No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father
came from the twitchell-speaking part of England. I think it was a source
of some amusement between my father and mother than they both had dialect
words for the thing, which were similar but different. Plus we were brought
up in a house which had a twitten/twitchell close by, so it was a term in
common use.

Both twitten and twitchell were possibilities in the survey that I took.

[John Briggs]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by mUs1Ka

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
"twitten", was not given.

You need to look more carefully; it is there.

No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my
father came from the twitchell-speaking part of England. I think it
was a source of some amusement between my father and mother than they
both had dialect words for the thing, which were similar but
different. Plus we were brought up in a house which had a
twitten/twitchell close by, so it was a term in common use.

There is a famous booklet on the snickelways of York - snickelway being a
portmanteau word for snicket, ginnel and alleyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickelways_of_York

[Mitch]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

Mitch

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?

In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

Cheers
Tony

[John Briggs]

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
"twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

That's because they were built before cars were invented...

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by John Briggs

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
"twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

That's because they were built before cars were invented...

Yes, but my point was that if they were wide enough for cars, I doubt
that Brits would call them alleys.

Cheers
Tony

[John Briggs]

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by John Briggs

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
"twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can
go on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car
can't go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't
know. It's not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say '
you know, the place between too buildings, the walkway that you
take to get to the back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway
but I don't -call- it a walkway). It might even have a gate/not
easily opened barrier, and might not even be walkable, but is
nevertheless a gap between two buildings, wide enough for a person
to walk through. What is -that- called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

That's because they were built before cars were invented...

Yes, but my point was that if they were wide enough for cars, I doubt
that Brits would call them alleys.

It rather looks as if the word always designated a footway connecting two
streets. "Passage" fulfilled the same function, but could probably take
traffic. "Yard" or "Court" were closed, but could take vehicles.

[sage]

John Briggs wrote:
(Snip)

Post by John Briggs
It rather looks as if the word always designated a footway connecting two
streets. "Passage" fulfilled the same function, but could probably take
traffic. "Yard" or "Court" were closed, but could take vehicles.

I'm sure that in Newcastle-under-Lyme it was/is called it an "entry" --
even if it was an alley, whether dead-end or through to another street.

Cheers, Sage

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by John Briggs

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
"twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

That's because they were built before cars were invented...

When I was young, I'd call it a "twitten" - that's what we used the
word for "the place between two buildings, not wide enough to take
a car". The archetypal twitten to me was a paved footway which went between
two blocks on our council estate, we often had to refer to this when
I was young as it was almost next to us, and it was just "the twitten".
It was built after cars were invented. I think an "alley" too refers
to a narrow passage - it wouldn't be an "alley" if cars could fit down it.

BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.

Matthew Huntbach

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.

It's like Linford Christie's lunchbox, only [even] bigger.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Matthew Huntbach
BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.

It's like Linford Christie's lunchbox, only [even] bigger.

A skip, Matthew. I'm often the last to notice changes in fashion, so
perhaps everybody else has already got blasé about folding skips made of
tough plastic clothy stuff. I've only this week seen my first. I didn't
find a picture, but for some unknown reason one of those Ggl Images
offered me was this irrelevancy (not for the office):
Loading Image...

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
When I was young, I'd call it a "twitten" - that's what
we used the word for "the place between two buildings, not wide
enough to take a car".

_The Full Monty_ has the Sheffield term "jennel".

(Also, irrelevantly, "nesh": unusually susceptible to cold.)

[Mitch]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.

Large metal/plastic waste receptacle. Obstacles (next to discarded
pallets and empty cardboard boxes) in car chase scenes down 'alleys'.

Mitch

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
"twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
"bully").

[Owain]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch
Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ...

In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
"bully").

In Scotland we have closes (as in Edinburgh, off the Royal Mile,
although some of them are vehicular), vennels, and pends.

Owain

[sage]

Post by Owain

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch
Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ...

In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
"bully").

In Scotland we have closes (as in Edinburgh, off the Royal Mile,
although some of them are vehicular), vennels, and pends.
Owain

The other day, I saw that UK TV programme where people make a bid on
one of three properties. It was set in Edinburgh and one of the
properties was in a tenement (Not the same as a US tenement, as has been
discussed here before).

The presenter, Alice Beer (I think is her name) asked the estate
agent/"expert witness" what could be done to cheer up the foyer and the
ea/ew cautioned her that it should be referred to as "the close". That
surprised me because I thought the close was the courtyard around which
the tenement was built.

Cheers, Sage

[Owain]

Post by sage

Post by Owain
In Scotland we have closes (as in Edinburgh, off the Royal Mile,
although some of them are vehicular), vennels, and pends.

The other day, I saw that UK TV programme where people make a bid on
one of three properties. It was set in Edinburgh and one of the
properties was in a tenement (Not the same as a US tenement, as has been
discussed here before).
The presenter, Alice Beer (I think is her name) asked the estate
agent/"expert witness" what could be done to cheer up the foyer and the
ea/ew cautioned her that it should be referred to as "the close". That
surprised me because I thought the close was the courtyard around which
the tenement was built.

In Edinburgh's Old Town, the closes off the Royal Mile are the narrow
lanes leading between the tenements, but the word is also, and more
widely, used for the common stair.

A pend is more likely to be a courtyard.

Owain

[Alan Jones]

[...]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Tony Mountifield
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
"bully").

Ah. That may explain something that's puzzled me for almost seventy years. A
sort of alleyway ran from our back gate down to the village High Street: it
was too narrow, as I recall, for two adults to walk comfortably side by
side, and the ground was simply dirt - no kind of paving at all. On one side
was the low tumble-down wall of the doctor's paddock, on the other a tallish
hedge flanking our field. We called this alleyway "The Gully", which I heard
for years as "Gullet", thinking there was some allusion to one's throat. As
our native "u" was the Northern "oo", "gully" indeed rhymed with "bully".
And this was in Shropshire, only a short distance from Wales.

But NSOED derives "gully" or "gulley", with various meanings including of
course a ravine worn into a mountainside by water, from the French for
"throat", and gives as a dialectal sense of "gullet" "a narrow passage".

So was my childhood "gully" Welsh or French?

Alan Jones

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Alan Jones
[...]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Tony Mountifield
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
"bully").

Ah. That may explain something that's puzzled me for almost seventy
years. A sort of alleyway ran from our back gate down to the village
High Street: it was too narrow, as I recall, for two adults to walk
comfortably side by side, and the ground was simply dirt - no kind of
paving at all. On one side was the low tumble-down wall of the
doctor's paddock, on the other a tallish hedge flanking our field. We
called this alleyway "The Gully", which I heard for years as
"Gullet", thinking there was some allusion to one's throat. As our
native "u" was the Northern "oo", "gully" indeed rhymed with "bully".
And this was in Shropshire, only a short distance from Wales.
But NSOED derives "gully" or "gulley", with various meanings
including of course a ravine worn into a mountainside by water, from
the French for "throat", and gives as a dialectal sense of "gullet"
"a narrow passage".
So was my childhood "gully" Welsh or French?

Hmm. It's not at all impossible that the Welsh is actually ad. the
English word, ad. the French. No help from OED.

[Mitch]

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?

To me (AmE) those certainly sound better, but somehow a little
generic. But maybe that's all there is in AmE.

Post by Tony Mountifield
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

Mitch

[David]

Post by Mitch

Post by Tony Mountifield
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

My, but you Yanks sure are lazy when it come to going bowling!

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by David

Post by Mitch

Post by Tony Mountifield
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

My, but you Yanks sure are lazy when it come to going bowling!

Yeah, but it sure knocks the good ol' American shock 'n' awe into the pins,
innit.

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by Mitch

Post by Tony Mountifield
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

Which brings to mind another AmE/BrE difference. If something is
particularly appropriate or of interest to someone, we say it is
"right up their street", but I believe AmE would say "right up
their alley".

Cheers
Tony

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Mitch

Post by Tony Mountifield
In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

Which brings to mind another AmE/BrE difference. If something is
particularly appropriate or of interest to someone, we say it is
"right up their street", but I believe AmE would say "right up
their alley".

That's correct as far as this AmE speaker is concerned.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Mitch

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

In Chicago, there's a driveable roadway between each pair of east-west
streets, used for garage access and sometimes for trash pickup; that's
called an alley, and the spaces between houses, which lead to the back
yards, are called gangways.

In New York City, which doesn't have that sort of alley, the spaces
between buildings are called alleys, and a gangway is only a ramp used
for boarding a ship from the pier.

[Tony Mountifield]

"Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.

Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
it pronounced scoon.

Cheers
Tony

[Alan Jones]

Post by Tony Mountifield

"Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.
Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
it pronounced scoon.

I seem to remember that "scoon" is the proper pronunciation of the Scottish
place-name "Scone". The bun is "scon" for me now, but the "stone" version
was what I heard as a child.

Alan Jones

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Tony Mountifield

"Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun]
rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the
similar pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken
more to 'con'. Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'.
I've never heard it pronounced scoon.

I seem to remember that "scoon" is the proper
pronunciation of the Scottish place-name "Scone". The bun
is "scon" for me now, but the "stone" version was what I
heard as a child.

From some time in the 1950s:

How to Get On in Society
John Betjeman

Phone for the fish-knives, Norman
As Cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.
Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.
It's ever so close in the lounge, dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is out riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me.
Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know what I wanted to ask you --
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?
Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

[Ildhund]

Father Ignatius wrote...

Post by Father Ignatius
How to Get On in Society
John Betjeman
Phone for the fish-knives, Norman
As Cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.
Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.
It's ever so close in the lounge, dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is out riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me.
Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know what I wanted to ask you --
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?
Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

Ah, yes, I remember it well. This sounds just like my mother, who
even looked like Hyacinth Bucket.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Tony Mountifield
Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
it pronounced scoon.

I seem to remember that "scoon" is the proper pronunciation of the Scottish
place-name "Scone". The bun is "scon" for me now, but the "stone" version
was what I heard as a child.

Same here - does this mean the "stone" version is dying out, I don't remember
hearing it at all since I was young, and I'd feel too self-conscious to
use it now.

BTW, I would NOT classify a "scone" as a "bun". But we've been through this
before - others seem to use "bun" for a much wider category of things than
I do. I'd say a bun has to be both sweet and made of dough.

Matthew Huntbach

[Ildhund]

Tony Mountifield wrote...

Post by Tony Mountifield

"Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.

As in "'E been 'n' gawn 'n' dunnit"? Sorry, bad choice of possible
rhyme on my part.

[Einde O'Callaghan]

Post by Tony Mountifield

"Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.
Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
it pronounced scoon.

I always thought this was only the pronunciation of the stone under the
coronation chair/throne.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

[*alan*]

Post by b***@gmail.com
My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online at
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
This survey differs from my previous Harvard and UWM surveys in a few
1. It maps the responses using the google maps engine, which allows
for
interactive manipulation of the maps: zooming in, moving across the
globe,
and so on.
2. It has a more manageable number of questions (31).
3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.
Currently the maps plot 50,000 responses from the United States, but
once I
have sufficient responses from the rest of the world I will generate
new maps.
I hope you will consider taking the survey and asking your friends and
students to as well.
Thanks,
Bert Vaux
University of Cambridge

Are you at all concerned that, although you appear to be getting a rather
broad regional response, you are nevertheless relying on the participation
of a rather narrowly defined socio-economic group (i.e. on-line computer
users who either frequent newsgroups or have been referred to your survey by
those who do frequent newsgroups)? I would think that such a narrowly
defined group of respondents could not necessarily be relied upon to provide
an accurate representation of the regions in which they may have formed
their speech habits.
--
alan

[Einde O'Callaghan]

Post by b***@gmail.com
My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online at
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so
because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee
youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland,
where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the
cities of Dublin and Cork.

Of course the designers of this survey may not be interested in input
from people of Irish origin (the currrent population of the republic is
under 4 million - a minute percentage of the number of native english
speakers), but since this group has provided a disproportionately high
number of leading writers of English I would regard this as being a bit
shortsighted.

All in all a badly designed survey - badly designed since it doesn't
allow all speakers of English to participate.

BTW Ireland isn't the only English-speaking country not to use post
codes - as far as I can see they are rare to non-existent in the West
Indies, another area where native English speakers are not unknown.

Einde O'Callaghan

[Frances Kemmish]

Post by Einde O'Callaghan

Post by b***@gmail.com
My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online at
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so
because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee
youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland,
where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the
cities of Dublin and Cork.
Of course the designers of this survey may not be interested in input
from people of Irish origin (the currrent population of the republic is
under 4 million - a minute percentage of the number of native english
speakers), but since this group has provided a disproportionately high
number of leading writers of English I would regard this as being a bit
shortsighted.
All in all a badly designed survey - badly designed since it doesn't
allow all speakers of English to participate.
BTW Ireland isn't the only English-speaking country not to use post
codes - as far as I can see they are rare to non-existent in the West
Indies, another area where native English speakers are not unknown.

I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some of
the mandatory information. The opening form has a check box for "My
parents are native speakers of English" but doesn't allow for my
situation: my father was a native speaker, but my mother was not.

Fran

[Ildhund]

Frances Kemmish wrote...

Post by Frances Kemmish
I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some
of the mandatory information.

My initial attempt was rejected because I had failed to submit an
answer to Q15 ('blah'). None of the preprogrammed responses applied,
as I wrote in a comment.

[Martin Crossley]

Post by Ildhund
Frances Kemmish wrote...

Post by Frances Kemmish
I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some
of the mandatory information.

My initial attempt was rejected because I had failed to submit an
answer to Q15 ('blah'). None of the preprogrammed responses applied,
as I wrote in a comment.

Same problem with Q15 for me.
Also couldn't set country to England and State to United Kingdom, only vice
versa!

[Mark Brader]

Post by Frances Kemmish

Post by Einde O'Callaghan

Post by b***@gmail.com
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so
because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee
youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland,
where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the
cities of Dublin and Cork.

I wonder how many cities there are where Bert is going to get meaningful
data distinguishing dialects of different parts of the city. Asking for
a postal code seems way too specific.

Post by Frances Kemmish
I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some of
the mandatory information. The opening form has a check box for "My
parents are native speakers of English" but doesn't allow for my
situation: my father was a native speaker, but my mother was not.

That would just be a "no", wouldn't it? Still a bad design, because
one of the two possible answers is entered by default.

*I* didn't participate in the survey because the password I'd just
supplied to it didn't work. I *almost* didn't participate because
it requires registration, and my practice is to never register with
web sites; but I'm willing to make an occasional exception for bona
fide university research. However, after I filled in the form, my
password didn't work. Perhaps this was because, since I was never
going to use it again, I entered something 30 characters long.
I tried changing it by returning to the registration form, but it
said I was already registered and wouldn't let me.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Einde O'Callaghan

Post by b***@gmail.com
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so
because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee
youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland,
where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the
cities of Dublin and Cork.

I wonder how many cities there are where Bert is going to get meaningful
data distinguishing dialects of different parts of the city. Asking for
a postal code seems way too specific.

I had problems with postcodes too. I thought I ought to give the place
where I was born, which probably had a greater influence on my
pronunciation than my later translation to Australia, but the online
postcode search couldn't find it, so I had to give my Aussie code.
(The Royal Post, or whatever they call themselves, did provide me with
the code 24 hours later)

[mm]

Post by b***@gmail.com
My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online at
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle? Even though both
are common in New Jersey, they're very different.

If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

[Odysseus]

Post by mm

Post by b***@gmail.com
My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online at
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle? Even though both
are common in New Jersey, they're very different.

I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that
question. I'd never seen "jug handle" in such a context before, though:
is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?

[Mitch]

Post by Odysseus

Post by mm
Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle? Even though both
are common in New Jersey, they're very different.

I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that
is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?

Those are pretty different, too. A cloverleaf is a connector where you
go 270 degrees to the right in order to end up going 90 degrees left
(from one superhighway to another intersecting superhighway.

A jug handle is also to turn left but from a minor highway (like NJ Rt
1) to a lesser cross street (but big enough to need a traffic light).
The Jug handle replaces the use of a left-hand turn lane, by instead
drawing cars off to the right a bit and then facing to the left (also
allowing safer U-turns).

The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
road won't have them).

Mitch

[mm]

Post by Mitch

Post by Odysseus

Post by mm
Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle? Even though both
are common in New Jersey, they're very different.

I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that
is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?

Those are pretty different, too. A cloverleaf is a connector where you
go 270 degrees to the right in order to end up going 90 degrees left
(from one superhighway to another intersecting superhighway.
A jug handle is also to turn left but from a minor highway (like NJ Rt
1) to a lesser cross street (but big enough to need a traffic light).
The Jug handle replaces the use of a left-hand turn lane, by instead
drawing cars off to the right a bit and then facing to the left (also
allowing safer U-turns).
The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
road won't have them).

Right. To have my turn, they use jug handles where there is no room
for a center left turn lane. And where they don't want to take the
time awway from the highway to have a green for the cross traffic and
a different green for a left turn lane. And where there is that minor
highway (And Route 1 is a prime example, though I saw them in one
other plade in New Jersey also.) and they want that to have green
lights 90% of the time.

But there are usually minor cross-streets and sometimes they can
squeeze the jug handle in the parking lot that already exists on busy
highways, but other times I'm sure they condemn and remove the
building on the right just before the cross-street Then the right
hand lane of the highway swerves off to the right and joins up with
the cross street, several car lengths away from the highway. So that
cars can wait there until their light turns green.

It's pretty simple, but I didn't think of it. In fact I didn't even
get it the first time or two I saw the sign for one. I'm still
driving, trying to figure out how to turn left.

They aren't labeled with a word, only a drawing, so you have to learn
what they're called.

In Baltimore the traffic reports refer to the "triple bridges" and I
lived her for 3 or 4 years before I figured out what they were, and
that I drove underneath them 5 or 10 times a week! (An interstate and
2 layers of elevated ramp, one above the other) I also thought the JFX
was the John F. Kennedy eXpressway, which is a name on the map, but
they all call it I-95. It turned out, after several years, that the
JFX was the Jones Falls eXpressway.

Post by Mitch
Mitch

If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by mm

Post by Mitch

Post by Odysseus

Post by mm
Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle? Even though both
are common in New Jersey, they're very different.

I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that
is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?

Those are pretty different, too. A cloverleaf is a connector where you
go 270 degrees to the right in order to end up going 90 degrees left
(from one superhighway to another intersecting superhighway.
A jug handle is also to turn left but from a minor highway (like NJ Rt
1) to a lesser cross street (but big enough to need a traffic light).
The Jug handle replaces the use of a left-hand turn lane, by instead
drawing cars off to the right a bit and then facing to the left (also
allowing safer U-turns).
The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
road won't have them).

Right. To have my turn, they use jug handles where there is no room
for a center left turn lane. And where they don't want to take the
time awway from the highway to have a green for the cross traffic and
a different green for a left turn lane. And where there is that minor
highway (And Route 1 is a prime example, though I saw them in one
other plade in New Jersey also.) and they want that to have green
lights 90% of the time.

They're found throughout New Jersey, and perhaps nowhere else;
remember that NJ was one of the first densely populated areas to get
automobilized, and engineers tried out many schemes for intersections
and such, many of which didn't work too well, especially when
traveling speeds increased. Many of them have been replaced with more
practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

Post by mm
But there are usually minor cross-streets and sometimes they can
squeeze the jug handle in the parking lot that already exists on busy
highways, but other times I'm sure they condemn and remove the
building on the right just before the cross-street Then the right
hand lane of the highway swerves off to the right and joins up with
the cross street, several car lengths away from the highway. So that
cars can wait there until their light turns green.
It's pretty simple, but I didn't think of it. In fact I didn't even
get it the first time or two I saw the sign for one. I'm still
driving, trying to figure out how to turn left.
They aren't labeled with a word, only a drawing, so you have to learn
what they're called.

The term in unknown elsewhere.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
They're found throughout New Jersey, and perhaps nowhere else;
remember that NJ was one of the first densely populated areas to get
automobilized, and engineers tried out many schemes for intersections
and such, many of which didn't work too well, especially when
traveling speeds increased. Many of them have been replaced with more
practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

I suppose most countries have their own "spaghetti junction". This is ours:
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?&hloc=GB|6006#t=l&map=-31.95804,115.8514|17|4&loc=AU:-31.92712:115.85303:14|6006|6006

Tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/2kr9sj

[Padraic Brown]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 06:46:50 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter T. Daniels
They're found throughout New Jersey, and perhaps nowhere else;
remember that NJ was one of the first densely populated areas to get
automobilized, and engineers tried out many schemes for intersections
and such, many of which didn't work too well, especially when
traveling speeds increased. Many of them have been replaced with more
practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

If the need is perceived as great enough, it will get done. DC has
been through a couple years of pain and grief sorting out the "Mixing
Bowl" that is the Springfield Interchange. Also finished building a
whole new Beltway bridge over the Potomac. Not bad for the second or
third worst traffic area in the US.

Post by Robert Bannister
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?&hloc=GB|6006#t=l&map=-31.95804,115.8514|17|4&loc=AU:-31.92712:115.85303:14|6006|6006
http://tinyurl.com/2kr9sj

Here's one of ours:

http://tinyurl.com/2e5gu6

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Interchange

Padraic

[Robert Lieblich]

Padraic Brown wrote:

[ ... ]

Post by Padraic Brown
If the need is perceived as great enough, it will get done. DC has
been through a couple years of pain and grief sorting out the "Mixing
Bowl" that is the Springfield Interchange. Also finished building a
whole new Beltway bridge over the Potomac. Not bad for the second or
third worst traffic area in the US.

Note, however, that the Springfield Interchange is entirely in
Virginia and the Woodrow Wilson Bridge was paid for mostly by Virginia
and Maryland. And all the completion of the Springfield Interchange
seems to have accomplished is to transfer the bottlenecks elsewhere.

Still, it could be worse. If the Metro ever stopped running, it would
be almost as crippling to the Washington area as the loss of the
subway would be to NY or the tube to London.

[Padraic Brown]

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:12:42 -0400, Robert Lieblich

Post by Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]

Post by Padraic Brown

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

If the need is perceived as great enough, it will get done. DC has
been through a couple years of pain and grief sorting out the "Mixing
Bowl" that is the Springfield Interchange. Also finished building a
whole new Beltway bridge over the Potomac. Not bad for the second or
third worst traffic area in the US.

Note, however, that the Springfield Interchange is entirely in
Virginia and the Woodrow Wilson Bridge was paid for mostly by Virginia
and Maryland.

Well, I'm not really concerned about who actually pays for it -- I was
responding to the engineering and logistics nightmares of shutting
down major highways and shunting zillions of vehicles onto alternate
pathways in order to get the work done. Virginia obviously felt the
need was great enough and was willing to take on the task. Jersey
apparently is not so willing! Looking at the pictures, I'd say the two
interchanges are comparable in their spaghettitude.

Post by Robert Lieblich
And all the completion of the Springfield Interchange
seems to have accomplished is to transfer the bottlenecks elsewhere.

This is quite true, but what is key to keep in mind here is that
_Springfield_ is now (comparatively) bottleneck free! ;)

Post by Robert Lieblich
Still, it could be worse. If the Metro ever stopped running, it would
be almost as crippling to the Washington area as the loss of the
subway would be to NY or the tube to London.

That's true. The other railroads won't be able to take up the slack
(yet).

Padraic

[Alan Jones]

"Peter T. Daniels" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:***@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
[...]

Many of [these complex junctions] have been replaced with more
practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

[...]

What happens when the road surface needs extensive repair?

Alan Jones

[Peter T. Daniels]

[...]> Many of [these complex junctions] have been replaced with more

Post by Peter T. Daniels
practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

[...]
What happens when the road surface needs extensive repair?

If you'll drive through some lanes of it, you won't ask that question!

Actually, the Pulaski Skyway is about to have a $10 billion, 10-year
renovation (it was planned before the bridge fell down in Minneapolis,
but that caused it to have lots of publicity), and this knot at its
eastern end might (somehow) get redone. This past year, they've been
rebuilding the double-deck highway that leads from it to the Holland
Tunnel, and the traffic patterns have changed every few weeks as
successive ramps are replaced. I wonder what will happen when the two
levels of the main road, maybe half a mile long, get their chance.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

[...]> Many of [these complex junctions] have been replaced with more

Post by Peter T. Daniels
practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

[...]
What happens when the road surface needs extensive repair?

If you'll drive through some lanes of it, you won't ask that question!
Actually, the Pulaski Skyway is about to have a $10 billion, 10-year
renovation (it was planned before the bridge fell down in Minneapolis,
but that caused it to have lots of publicity), and this knot at its
eastern end might (somehow) get redone. This past year, they've been
rebuilding the double-deck highway that leads from it to the Holland
Tunnel, and the traffic patterns have changed every few weeks as
successive ramps are replaced. I wonder what will happen when the two
levels of the main road, maybe half a mile long, get their chance.

While I enjoyed taking the quiz and looking at the map, I also found
it a bit confusing. Did anybody feel that way? Curious.

[Odysseus]

In article <***@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
Mitch <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Mitch
The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
road won't have them).

I think of "a cloverleaf" as the full set: four spiral ramps for left
turns, enclosed by four diagonal ramps for right turns.

[mm]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:35:11 GMT, Odysseus

Post by Odysseus
<snip>

Post by Mitch
The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
road won't have them).

I think of "a cloverleaf" as the full set: four spiral ramps for left
turns, enclosed by four diagonal ramps for right turns.

That was later. Somehow the early drawings of cloverleafs didn't have
the ramps for right turns. I guess everyone had to turn left three
times. :)

If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

[Django Cat]

Post by b***@gmail.com
My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online athttp://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
This survey differs from my previous Harvard and UWM surveys in a few
1. It maps the responses using the google maps engine, which allows
for
interactive manipulation of the maps: zooming in, moving across the
globe,
and so on.
2. It has a more manageable number of questions (31).
3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

How good of you to remember us.
DC