[OT] optimal vs. optimized [was: Re: string concatentation...]

[Michele Dondi]

Note: crossposted to some supposedly relevant groups. If anyone has
better ones to suggest, then they're welcome.

For people reading this outside of clpmisc, the question arose with
the following post:

<news:sfvqs4-***@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>

which in turn was in response to an observation of mine. The whole
thread is available from GG at the following URL:

<http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=sfvqs4-***@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>


================================================================================

You have a good point; however, as is usual in English grammar,
arguments from ancestry don't always help :). For instance, if 'optimum'
and derived words are necessarily superlative, then 'optimized' means
'made best', and A cannot be more optimized than B either. A has either
been 'made best' or it hasn't.

I'm not sure. 'To optimize' could mean 'to try to reach the optimum'
(or optimal incarnation - of something) thus 'optimized' may mean 'to
have undergone the process of optimization', thus to have gone as much
as possible (wrt some constraints, e.g. time) towards the optimum
without necessarily reaching it. By contrast I see 'optimal' very much
as a synonym of 'optimum' itself, and personally I find much more
acceptable the expression 'more optimzed' than 'more optimal'.

I think what has happened is that, in English, 'optimal' and
'optimized' have acquired something of a sense of 'efficient', which is
clearly comparative, rather than of 'best' in a more general sense. So

That they have been or are occasionally used in that sense may well
be, but I would be surprised to learn that they have actually
"acquired" it. If I paste the remaining two entries found by dict
(which I snipped last time), namely:

: From Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 :
:
: 24 Moby Thesaurus words for "optimal":
: best, champion, choice, elect, elite, for the best, greatest,
: handpicked, matchless, optimum, paramount, peerless, picked, prime,
: prize, quintessential, select, supreme, surpassing, unmatchable,
: unmatched, unparalleled, unsurpassed, very best
:
:
:
:
: From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) :
:
: optimal
:
: 1. Describes a solution to a problem which
: minimises some cost function. Linear programming is one
: technique used to discover the optimal solution to certain
: problems.
:
: 2. Of code: best or most efficient in time,
: space or code size.

you will see that the last one, which is specifically aimed at CS and
IT -and it's actually relevant here- still does not mention just
"efficiency". Thus my take on the issue is that 'optimal' is not just
'efficient' as alleged, but 'the most efficient'. All this, still at a
syntactical level, i.e. we're not discussing yet what "efficient"
could mean.

I'll repeat myself: maybe this strikes me more strongly because of my
implicit Latin heritage, but I still find 'more optimal' to sound like
'more most efficient'.

optimizing a program doesn't necessarily make it better, it simply makes
it more efficient: other things may be more important than efficiency,

This is semantics. "better" and "more efficient" are both
comparatives. That other things may be more important than efficiency
(and indeed I think they are) is irrelevant to the linguistic point
being discussed here.

portability or readability for example. 'Optimum' has not (I would say)

We're not necessarily speaking of computer programs here, and although
it is not in the dictionaries I mentioned before I think that the
italian definition I found for 'ottimale' may well be translated in
English, which is what I'm trying to do now:

: adj: of something that, according to some determinate parameters or
: points of view, represents the *best* possible condition or the *best*
: possible result: e.g. optimal life conditions.

If you accept this, then you can still speak in the context of
programming of a

changed like this, so I find it odd that the dictionaries you quoted say
it is synonymous with 'optimal': I would entirely agree that 'more
optimum' is obviously wrong.

In all earnestness I had never witnessed the use you're reporting of
'optimal', namely that in which it is not a superlative. But
admittedly I do not read *that* much in English.

Theory aside, a quick google shows that 'more optimal' is definitely
acceptable usage; for instance (a random example from the results)

Huh?!? Google may show that "ur so c00l bro" is acceptable usage!!

This is because the claim that A is more optimal or better adapted
than B with respect to some function does not entail that A is
optimal or even good with respect to that function.
http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/archives/fall1999/entries/teleology-biology/
which shows that 'optimal' can have the sense of 'efficient' or
'effective' rather than simply 'best'.

Well, that is from an academic institution thus should not fall in the
"ur so c00l bro", but I'm still skeptical: young researchers, however
good may they be in their research field, often tend to speak and
write very bad in their own mother tongue. For example in Italy some
young mathematicians are beginning to use the horrible anglophonic
"surgettiva" in place of the traditional "suriettiva", not that a word
borrowed from English is so bad in and of itself, but it is when
there's a perfectly fine alternative in one's own language.

[English] not only borrows words from other languages; it has on
occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them
unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary.
-- James Nicoll

I knew that. In fact it's amongs my .sigs!


Michele

[vocabulary]

Post by Michele Dondi
Note: crossposted to some supposedly relevant groups. If anyone has
better ones to suggest, then they're welcome.
For people reading this outside of clpmisc, the question arose with
which in turn was in response to an observation of mine. The whole
===========================================================================�=====

You have a good point; however, as is usual in English grammar,
arguments from ancestry don't always help :). For instance, if 'optimum'
and derived words are necessarily superlative, then 'optimized' means
'made best', and A cannot be more optimized than B either. A has either
been 'made best' or it hasn't.

I'm not sure. 'To optimize' could mean 'to try to reach the optimum'
(or optimal incarnation - of something) thus 'optimized' may mean 'to
have undergone the process of optimization', thus to have gone as much
as possible (wrt some constraints, e.g. time) towards the optimum
without necessarily reaching it. By contrast I see 'optimal' very much
as a synonym of 'optimum' itself, and personally I find much more
acceptable the expression 'more optimzed' than 'more optimal'.

I think what has happened is that, in English, 'optimal' and
'optimized' have acquired something of a sense of 'efficient', which is
clearly comparative, rather than of 'best' in a more general sense. So

That they have been or are occasionally used in that sense may well
be, but I would be surprised to learn that they have actually
"acquired" it. If I paste the remaining two entries found by dict
: best, champion, choice, elect, elite, for the best, greatest,
: handpicked, matchless, optimum, paramount, peerless, picked, prime,
: prize, quintessential, select, supreme, surpassing, unmatchable,
: unmatched, unparalleled, unsurpassed, very best
: optimal
: 1. Describes a solution to a problem which
: minimises some cost function. Linear programming is one
: technique used to discover the optimal solution to certain
: problems.
: 2. Of code: best or most efficient in time,
: space or code size.
you will see that the last one, which is specifically aimed at CS and
IT -and it's actually relevant here- still does not mention just
"efficiency". Thus my take on the issue is that 'optimal' is not just
'efficient' as alleged, but 'the most efficient'. All this, still at a
syntactical level, i.e. we're not discussing yet what "efficient"
could mean.
I'll repeat myself: maybe this strikes me more strongly because of my
implicit Latin heritage, but I still find 'more optimal' to sound like
'more most efficient'.

optimizing a program doesn't necessarily make it better, it simply makes
it more efficient: other things may be more important than efficiency,

This is semantics. "better" and "more efficient" are both
comparatives. That other things may be more important than efficiency
(and indeed I think they are) is irrelevant to the linguistic point
being discussed here.

portability or readability for example. 'Optimum' has not (I would say)

We're not necessarily speaking of computer programs here, and although
it is not in the dictionaries I mentioned before I think that the
italian definition I found for 'ottimale' may well be translated in
: adj: of something that, according to some determinate parameters or
: points of view, represents the *best* possible condition or the *best*
: possible result: e.g. optimal life conditions.
If you accept this, then you can still speak in the context of
programming of a

changed like this, so I find it odd that the dictionaries you quoted say
it is synonymous with 'optimal': I would entirely agree that 'more
optimum' is obviously wrong.

In all earnestness I had never witnessed the use you're reporting of
'optimal', namely that in which it is not a superlative. But
admittedly I do not read *that* much in English.

Theory aside, a quick google shows that 'more optimal' is definitely
acceptable usage; for instance (a random example from the results)

Huh?!? Google may show that "ur so c00l bro" is acceptable usage!!

This is because the claim that A is more optimal or better adapted
than B with respect to some function does not entail that A is
optimal or even good with respect to that function.
http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/archives/fall1999/entries/teleology-biology/
which shows that 'optimal' can have the sense of 'efficient' or
'effective' rather than simply 'best'.

Well, that is from an academic institution thus should not fall in the
"ur so c00l bro", but I'm still skeptical: young researchers, however
good may they be in their research field, often tend to speak and
write very bad in their own mother tongue. For example in Italy some
young mathematicians are beginning to use the horrible anglophonic
"surgettiva" in place of the traditional "suriettiva", not that a word
borrowed from English is so bad in and of itself, but it is when
there's a perfectly fine alternative in one's own language.

[English] not only borrows words from other languages; it has on
occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them
unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary.
-- James Nicoll

I knew that. In fact it's amongs my .sigs!
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,

Yes, vocabulary in English was made rich by the words from many other
languages. These languages were of the places where British and
English moved in the course of history. I saw a website which helps in
knowing words and building vocabulary. It is www.buildingvocabulary.org.

[GRE]

Post by vocabulary

Post by Michele Dondi
Note: crossposted to some supposedly relevant groups. If anyone has
better ones to suggest, then they're welcome.
For people reading this outside of clpmisc, the question arose with
which in turn was in response to an observation of mine. The whole
===========================================================================��=====

You have a good point; however, as is usual in English grammar,
arguments from ancestry don't always help :). For instance, if 'optimum'
and derived words are necessarily superlative, then 'optimized' means
'made best', and A cannot be more optimized than B either. A has either
been 'made best' or it hasn't.

I'm not sure. 'To optimize' could mean 'to try to reach the optimum'
(or optimal incarnation - of something) thus 'optimized' may mean 'to
have undergone the process of optimization', thus to have gone as much
as possible (wrt some constraints, e.g. time) towards the optimum
without necessarily reaching it. By contrast I see 'optimal' very much
as a synonym of 'optimum' itself, and personally I find much more
acceptable the expression 'more optimzed' than 'more optimal'.

I think what has happened is that, in English, 'optimal' and
'optimized' have acquired something of a sense of 'efficient', which is
clearly comparative, rather than of 'best' in a more general sense. So

That they have been or are occasionally used in that sense may well
be, but I would be surprised to learn that they have actually
"acquired" it. If I paste the remaining two entries found by dict
: best, champion, choice, elect, elite, for the best, greatest,
: handpicked, matchless, optimum, paramount, peerless, picked, prime,
: prize, quintessential, select, supreme, surpassing, unmatchable,
: unmatched, unparalleled, unsurpassed, very best
: optimal
: 1. Describes a solution to a problem which
: minimises some cost function. Linear programming is one
: technique used to discover the optimal solution to certain
: problems.
: 2. Of code: best or most efficient in time,
: space or code size.
you will see that the last one, which is specifically aimed at CS and
IT -and it's actually relevant here- still does not mention just
"efficiency". Thus my take on the issue is that 'optimal' is not just
'efficient' as alleged, but 'the most efficient'. All this, still at a
syntactical level, i.e. we're not discussing yet what "efficient"
could mean.
I'll repeat myself: maybe this strikes me more strongly because of my
implicit Latin heritage, but I still find 'more optimal' to sound like
'more most efficient'.

optimizing a program doesn't necessarily make it better, it simply makes
it more efficient: other things may be more important than efficiency,

This is semantics. "better" and "more efficient" are both
comparatives. That other things may be more important than efficiency
(and indeed I think they are) is irrelevant to the linguistic point
being discussed here.

portability or readability for example. 'Optimum' has not (I would say)

We're not necessarily speaking of computer programs here, and although
it is not in the dictionaries I mentioned before I think that the
italian definition I found for 'ottimale' may well be translated in
: adj: of something that, according to some determinate parameters or
: points of view, represents the *best* possible condition or the *best*
: possible result: e.g. optimal life conditions.
If you accept this, then you can still speak in the context of
programming of a

changed like this, so I find it odd that the dictionaries you quoted say
it is synonymous with 'optimal': I would entirely agree that 'more
optimum' is obviously wrong.

In all earnestness I had never witnessed the use you're reporting of
'optimal', namely that in which it is not a superlative. But
admittedly I do not read *that* much in English.

Theory aside, a quick google shows that 'more optimal' is definitely
acceptable usage; for instance (a random example from the results)

Huh?!? Google may show that "ur so c00l bro" is acceptable usage!!

This is because the claim that A is more optimal or better adapted
than B with respect to some function does not entail that A is
optimal or even good with respect to that function.
http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/archives/fall1999/entries/teleology-biology/
which shows that 'optimal' can have the sense of 'efficient' or
'effective' rather than simply 'best'.

Well, that is from an academic institution thus should not fall in the
"ur so c00l bro", but I'm still skeptical: young researchers, however
good may they be in their research field, often tend to speak and
write very bad in their own mother tongue. For example in Italy some
young mathematicians are beginning to use the horrible anglophonic
"surgettiva" in place of the traditional "suriettiva", not that a word
borrowed from English is so bad in and of itself, but it is when
there's a perfectly fine alternative in one's own language.

[English] not only borrows words from other languages; it has on
occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them
unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary.
-- James Nicoll

I knew that. In fact it's amongs my .sigs!
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,

Yes, vocabulary in English was made rich by the words from many other
languages. These languages were of the places where British and
English moved in the course of history. I saw a website which helps in
knowing words and building vocabulary. It iswww.buildingvocabulary.org.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

origins of the English words are many and so mastering them may be
little difficult.
www.vocabularycafe.com
www.improvingvocabulary.org

these may help

[Martin Ambuhl]

Post by GRE
origins of the English words are many and so mastering them may be
little difficult.
www.vocabularycafe.com
www.improvingvocabulary.org
these may help

Even though you are using the news client of the clueless,
groups.google.com, you can avoid being tarred with that brush if you
learn how to use it. One of the most important is to snip away all but
those sections of the original post except those necessary and germane
to you response. Quoting the whole original post only to add your own
tiny bit to the end is unnecessary and, in fact, rude.

[teachingvocabulary]

Post by Martin Ambuhl
Even though you are using the news client of the clueless,
groups.google.com, you can avoid being tarred with that brush if you
learn how to use it. One of the most important is to snip away all but
those sections of the original post except those necessary and germane
to you response. Quoting the whole original post only to add your own
tiny bit to the end is unnecessary and, in fact, rude.

Right. though that was not my point.

I wanted to tell about teaching vocabulary. I teach vocabulary to
students and take help of different sites. Some of them like
www.ultimatevocabulary.com
www.vocabularysoftware.net
www.buildingvocabulary.org
www.ultimatespelling.com
www.vocabularybuilder.info

[Mike Lyle]

Post by teachingvocabulary

Post by Martin Ambuhl
Even though you are using the news client of the clueless,
groups.google.com, you can avoid being tarred with that brush if you
learn how to use it. One of the most important is to snip away all
but those sections of the original post except those necessary and
germane to you response. Quoting the whole original post only to
add your own tiny bit to the end is unnecessary and, in fact, rude.

Right. though that was not my point.
I wanted to tell about teaching vocabulary. I teach vocabulary to
students and take help of different sites. Some of them like

[...]

We disbelieve your claim. Your English isn't good enough to make you an
effective English teacher: you're just a low-down commercial spammer
breaking the charter of Usenet discussion groups. Anybody reading your
messages will avoid buying the stuff on principle: these things are
generally garbage anyhow.